Curse

drkn · Mar 20, 2011, 09:42 AM // 09:42

Quote:

Only problem with buffing eles up the ass in PvE will be that in HM, ele enemies will be even more dangerous than they already are.

How can it be bad? With seven heroes and cons, the game is stupidly easy. How making HM actually hard can be a bad thing?
Anyways, Prot Spirit says hi.

I have to say i agree with Borat regarding eles and the whole prelim in everything but one thing - eles can emulate ritualists, spamming spirits just as well as pretty much any other class ;p

EPO Bot · Mar 20, 2011, 09:46 AM // 09:46

Prot spirit is already waaay too mandatory for it's own good. I leave it of my bar when it's even remotely possible.

Bright Star Shine · Mar 20, 2011, 12:09 PM // 12:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

How can it be bad? With seven heroes and cons, the game is stupidly easy. How making HM actually hard can be a bad thing?
Anyways, Prot Spirit says hi.

I have to say i agree with Borat regarding eles and the whole prelim in everything but one thing - eles can emulate ritualists, spamming spirits just as well as pretty much any other class ;p

Euhm, I'd like to see you prot spirit every party member before engaging a particular boss, because he's gonna wipe you. Remember, heroes are stupid as hell, and micro flagging all of em.. Just, cba, so 1 nice hit from that one boss and you're gone.

gremlin · Mar 20, 2011, 12:48 PM // 12:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

How can it be bad? With seven heroes and cons, the game is stupidly easy. How making HM actually hard can be a bad thing?
Anyways, Prot Spirit says hi.

I have to say i agree with Borat regarding eles and the whole prelim in everything but one thing - eles can emulate ritualists, spamming spirits just as well as pretty much any other class ;p

I think the point is fairly obvious you buff a skill to a certain point that the damage in hard mode could be an instant kill.

Players level armour and hits do not go up so if you buff ele enough then the bad guy comes in at level 30 and may well kill everybody and your cons will do little.

Armour penetration is fine but damage boosts should be carefully considered

Del · Mar 20, 2011, 12:48 PM // 12:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

How can it be bad? With seven heroes and cons, the game is stupidly easy. How making HM actually hard can be a bad thing?
Anyways, Prot Spirit says hi.

Saying prot spirit is the solution to insanely high-damage AoE is RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing stupid. If anything, things need to be nerfed to hell rather than buffed to make the game a challenge.

Killed u man · Mar 20, 2011, 02:10 PM // 14:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

Euhm, I'd like to see you prot spirit every party member before engaging a particular boss, because he's gonna wipe you. Remember, heroes are stupid as hell, and micro flagging all of em.. Just, cba, so 1 nice hit from that one boss and you're gone.

If you get wiped that fast of ele bosses, you suck. Shelter says hi.

The fact that your intire team wipes from 1 spells means you're incapable of flagging out your heroes, and is no excuse to call ele bosses overpowered, altough I do understand your point.

The biggest issue with eles is that they either need to one hit kill or they're inferior to everything else. An ele boss doesn't do more DPS than a frontline or Paragon boss, he does, however, manage to one hit heroes sometimes with spells such as rodgorts or one of the air skills.

There's enough ways to buff eles without necessarily buffing HM ele bosses, I'm not even going to bother listing them. It's the least of our worries.

LifeInfusion · Mar 20, 2011, 02:23 PM // 14:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

That's the same kind of calculation that proudly declares that Discord does 115 damage / 2.75s, which is comparable to Flare's 69 damage / 1.75s, and therefore the two skills should be comparable (don't bring up armour, because that would still imply that the two skills are comparable against AL 60 foes).

I'm not going to point out the problem with this calculation. I've done it enough times already. This proposed change to Invoke Lightning is, for all practical purposes, a nerf to DPS, not a buff.

- your original post

Quote:

That's the same kind of calculation that proudly declares that Immolate does 79 + 14 * 3 121 = damage / 5s, which is less than Flare's 69 damage / 1.75s, and therefore Immolate is weaker than Flare and three times weaker than Lava Arrows.

isn't ironic if you use your numbers that Discord is better even for DPS purposes vs 60Armor? Discord has 2 recharge after all, Flare has none. I these 2 seconds you can fire off any 1 second spell. Flare tops out at 40DPS, if you do nothing else and it costs 1.14 energy/second after Attune+AoR so you actually can't do much else unless you're running more than those 2 energy management skills.

Eles have to use all resources: time, energy, and position (if using AoE). Mesmers have much less emphasis on time. Necros have much less emphasis on energy and for stuff like Discord, time as well (1 cast and no need for attunements).

The more spammy something is without energy to support it, (i.e. Invoke+chain lightning on 40/40 and air attunement + AoR) the more Necros pull ahead. Spiking with Discord is possible, spiking with flare or anything short of Meteor/Liquid Flame/Fireball x5 is flat out impossible even against 60 armor (8*62=552 if you run 8 copies in the team and do nothing else). Discord is really not that great on its own (consider that SoS+Bloodsong=100damage per volley before Painful Bond ; the only advantage is targeting ....that's not even including Keystone mesmers with 100+ AoE damage every few seconds). It's that necros have the energy without using up 2-3 strippable slots on their skill bar.

Immolate can be used with other skills because 5-6 energy under Attune (5 under AoR also) every 6.75 seconds is nothing hard. Immolate isn't impressive at all, it has no spike potential ([email protected] +42 burn) or AoE (Fireball/Liquid Flame). It's more or less filler on Mind Blast+Rodgort's like Liquid Flame on a Searing Flames bar.

If you're running Attune + AoR, you're bounded by 0.75*6 aftercast=4.5 second aftercast + minimum of 6 cast for ele skills (with a slot used for res, you're bounded by 3.75 aftercast and 5 cast). So anything less than 5 recharge will stop you from using your full bar. That's why Immolate is mediocre and Lava arrows is lame. Lava Arrows puts out 36.3DPS if it hits all 3 targets (it's harder than with Immolate since it's projectile).

The only reason HM PvE eles have so much spike power is a 1.23-1.682 or even 2.5-3.5x multiplier due to a combination of Level and double Boss damage. It's like if I run Fireball or Lightning Orb against Ascalon mobs.

I don't even know why I even care about Eles anymore. I stopped playing mine in PvE and now I'm pew-pewing everything on my other casters.

Jeydra · Mar 20, 2011, 03:19 PM // 15:19

The reason I edited the post was because Discord's calculation was wrong ("should be" 115/3, even though 115/3 is still completely wrong). Having fixed that, the same reason Immolate > Flare is the same reason why pre-nerf Invoke > post-nerf Invoke.

I don't disagree with the rest of your post. I just think it's blatantly inaccurate to say that post-nerf Invoke does more DPS than pre-nerf Invoke.

Apok · Mar 20, 2011, 04:08 PM // 16:08

This is what Riverside does to PvP updates.....

Owik Gall · Mar 20, 2011, 08:23 PM // 20:23

I'm curious what the Dev update will be next week. Been hearing some QQ on the rangers, so maybe it's that. Some rants on paragons, too, but not so much. It could be about something else, though. Just have to wait and see.

drkn · Mar 20, 2011, 08:40 PM // 20:40

Regarding the HM ele boss with AoE problem - reading posts like those few above make me want to say 'l2p'.

So, step by step. I assume you have spirits in your set up - they're pretty much meta in PvE right now, mostly on player bars, but even if not, then there's a spiritspamming hero. At least one. If not, there's a minion master. Still, it's the easiest with a player spamming spirits and prot spirit on a hero, but it can be done otherwise.
Now, to the point. Set up your spirits, or be sure your MM has minions, or be sure your spammer has his spirits recharged.
Spam your spirits and put AoU on them, flag your heroes, precast PS and other prot spells you might have, aggro the boss with Pain Inverter, summon spirits. It's as simple as that 90% of the time.

If you don't have PI, if you've screwed and lost all minions, if you don't own Factions, if you encounter a particularly hard group - it's still doable.
Want a few hints? Spread your heroes and pull with a longbow. Lock your mesmer interrupter hero on the boss. Keep the boss on the ground long enough to kill it.
Even if there was an armor-ignoring spell that deals 900 damage and a few bosses in game used it, it'd be your fault that you wiped, not a flawed design. There are numerous ways to handle it.

And given how easy the game is now, especially when 7 hero teams got introduced, i would gladly trade harder ele bosses for more useful ele in HM PvE. Actually, if you're a real player, not just expecting to mash your face on the keyboard to do your thing, it's a win-win situation.

DiogoSilva · Mar 20, 2011, 08:47 PM // 20:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Owik Gall

I'm curious what the Dev update will be next week. Been hearing some QQ on the rangers, so maybe it's that. Some rants on paragons, too, but not so much. It could be about something else, though. Just have to wait and see.

Hmm, how so?

NerfHerder · Mar 20, 2011, 08:51 PM // 20:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

How can it be bad? With seven heroes and cons, the game is stupidly easy. How making HM actually hard can be a bad thing?
Anyways, Prot Spirit says hi.

I completely agree. More powerful Ele, Ranger, Paragon skills and HM foes are long over due. Asking Anet to nerf all the OP skills this late in the game just isnt going to happen. The only realistic option we have right now is to go with the flow of powercreep(in PvE).

Shadow Sentinel · Mar 20, 2011, 09:09 PM // 21:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taurean

Having a break from gw now, but i -really miss- some updates for the ranger!! PLEASE! Come up with something creative skillwise!

And not just for the 1st of april.

Flaggable pets while Charm Animal is equipped would be nice, for starters...

I hate worthless skills.

Brian the Gladiator · Mar 21, 2011, 06:01 AM // 06:01

Seriously...
Invoke Lightning's damage was nerfed down because the A/P spike in GvG was imba.
Grenth and EDA should be self explanatory.
Any time a physical class has been able to run a perma IAS and IMS simultaneously (see Primal Rage) it has been retardedly imbalanced so that has to be toned down (honestly, they should just make those run enchantments into stances instead... prob solved... and "smiter's boon" enchanted hast.)
Fevered Dreams Mesmers are stupid. Click skills... don't think.
The only thing imbalanced about barb sig Necromancers is the fact that the build has an open elite slot that can be filled with utility of choice. That is fixed with this update.

EDIT (infringement of my first amendment due to hurt feelings): All in all this update is really good for the game. It is a small step towards balancing the game back to how it used to be... fun. I understand where PvE people are coming from but HM is already easy, especially with the 7 hero update.

Hugh Manatee · Mar 21, 2011, 09:34 AM // 09:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

Only problem with buffing eles up the ass in PvE will be that in HM, ele enemies will be even more dangerous than they already are. That's the big irony of the situation, the profession that sucks the worst in HM is also feared the most in HM, because we don't have ridiculous amounts of armor vs everything. People say "give ES 3% AP in PvE". Or "make IL nearby in PvE", well, I'd like to see you take on a Margonite Anur Su with ~50 ES and 20 Air Magic. 175% Armor penetration (you'll have negative armor, gg) at 130 damage + enraged is gonna be happy fun time. I can't wait to see them hit me for 2k damage.

Anet is probably thinking about it, but they should make a way to make Eles viable again without making every area where 1 ele runs around impossible to VQ.

As I said, there's lots of skills they can buff to add damage to eles that a PvE mob won't have, swirling aura, magnetic aura, glyph of essence, iron mist, Elemental flame(they could change any of these in in pve only to add extra damage, armor penetration or an effect similar to BUH or the vanguard ward, or intensity), ward of weakness(could be altered to crack armor in addition to weakness, or reduce armor when in the ward), Elemental lord(buff the attribute increase or add a bonus damage modifier), Not to mentrion the bevy of junk elites that eles have, glyph of energy, second wind, ether prodigy(eles have gole, they don't need more e-management junk) Master of Magic(it actually nerfs your stats), and most air elites in PvE(surge needs to hit nearby when it pops, glimmer needs to damage adjacent, gust need to lose it's req of an off att hex and be AoE, invoke needs to hit way harder and hit more then 2 guys).

As for actually fighting the mobs with those skills, by Balthazar's flaming pubes, by Lyssa's exquisite tits, by Grenths icy balls, by Dwayna's dimpled ass, by Melandru's splintery areola BRING IT THE ON! GET SOME!

Pierre Francese · Mar 21, 2011, 12:57 PM // 12:57

The attunement change makes it easy for a Dual Attunement FC mesmer

. Lightning Hammer/Lightning Orb spam away!

Del · Mar 21, 2011, 01:04 PM // 13:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pierre Francese

The attunement change makes it easy for a Dual Attunement FC mesmer

. Lightning Hammer/Lightning Orb spam away!

...Or they could just run something effective. Aside from dodgeball, that seems pretty lame.

Bright Star Shine · Mar 21, 2011, 02:53 PM // 14:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hugh Manatee

As I said, there's lots of skills they can buff to add damage to eles that a PvE mob won't have, swirling aura, magnetic aura, glyph of essence, iron mist, Elemental flame(they could change any of these in in pve only to add extra damage, armor penetration or an effect similar to BUH or the vanguard ward, or intensity), ward of weakness(could be altered to crack armor in addition to weakness, or reduce armor when in the ward), Elemental lord(buff the attribute increase or add a bonus damage modifier), Not to mentrion the bevy of junk elites that eles have, glyph of energy, second wind, ether prodigy(eles have gole, they don't need more e-management junk) Master of Magic(it actually nerfs your stats), and most air elites in PvE(surge needs to hit nearby when it pops, glimmer needs to damage adjacent, gust need to lose it's req of an off att hex and be AoE, invoke needs to hit way harder and hit more then 2 guys).

As for actually fighting the mobs with those skills, by Balthazar's flaming pubes, by Lyssa's exquisite tits, by Grenths icy balls, by Dwayna's dimpled ass, by Melandru's splintery areola BRING IT THE ON! GET SOME!

Again, you're missing the point, suggesting Anet to create/change skills to support the ele is retarded and not solving the problem. If one profession can pump out insane damage without taking extra skills, and the other one can pump the same damage, but has to take 2-3 extra skills to get it done, who's the superior one? It's just mitigating the problem..

Also @this:

Quote:

If you get wiped that fast of ele bosses, you suck. Shelter says hi.

The fact that your intire team wipes from 1 spells means you're incapable of flagging out your heroes, and is no excuse to call ele bosses overpowered, altough I do understand your point.

The biggest issue with eles is that they either need to one hit kill or they're inferior to everything else. An ele boss doesn't do more DPS than a frontline or Paragon boss, he does, however, manage to one hit heroes sometimes with spells such as rodgorts or one of the air skills.

There's enough ways to buff eles without necessarily buffing HM ele bosses, I'm not even going to bother listing them. It's the least of our worries.

First of all, you seem to make it a sport to insult me in every thread we come across, which says more about you than about me.
Secondly, I never said I wiped at every ele boss I encounter, but I'm sure enough noobs or newer players do.
Thirdly: I did every VQ prior to heroes update, so never took a shelter hero and still got everything done. Also, never VQ'ed with cons etc..
My point was that some ele bosses already hit for 400-500 damage, and that an ele buff might just make that damage even more OP..

ensoriki · Mar 21, 2011, 11:08 PM // 23:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

How can it be bad? With seven heroes and cons, the game is stupidly easy. How making HM actually hard can be a bad thing?
Anyways, Prot Spirit says hi.

Cons shouldn't exist anyways.